Jim and Casper Go to Church

By: Jim Henderson and Matt Casper

Libby ebook  400-plus pages

Published: 2007

Genre: non-fiction, Christianity, churches

 

This book was recommended at a session I went to at the Equip conference on reaching non-churched people. It kind of blew my mind . . . a Christian pastor found an atheist who was willing to go to different Christian churches with him and write a book together. They both sound like great guys. I have way too many bookmarks (again) and so may need to skip some and go with my overall impressions.

 

Introduction (I pay people to go to church):

We started our first church in a small town just north of Seattle that already had twenty-seven churches, but a multitude of churches has never stopped a dedicated Pentecostal from launching another one. We viewed most church people as needing our upgraded version of Christianity as badly as the unsaved.

 

This is an interesting statement. Not having grown up in a Pentacostal church, some of this still feels new to me. The sense that "we have the answers" is troubling to me. There's an arrogance that I find very unChristlike.At least Jim acknowledges that he held that view when he was planting a church.

 

Introduction (I pay people to go to church): In fact, what Jesus talked about looked more like Habitat for Humanity or Alcoholics Anonymous - a grassroots movement with no official hierarchy but lots of leaders; no offerings, but enough money to get the job done. Jesus called it the Kingdom of God.

 

What Jesus intended the church to be . . . is at the heart of this book. I appreciate that Jamie has often pushed back against people's notions of "doing church" and has asked some important questions of us as the church body.  

 

Introduction (I pay people to go to church): Barb kept reminding me that God is much bigger than I imagine, and that he is also kind to people who aren't interested in him. I ignored her for a long time, but eventually I was worn down by her love and her authentic relationship with Jesus.

 

Jim is talking about his wife and I love that they were in different places theologically (she was in a Catholic convent!) but that her "authentic relationship" with Jesus made a huge difference for him. Thank you, Jesus, that you can change us in powerful ways.

 

Included in this introduction is his The Map Church Survey and a link. I haven't checked out that website yet (and I'm not sure I want to . . . ) but I thought I'd make note of it here. I also want to note that the author included a nod to Joe Myers, who wrote Organic Community. I don't plan on reading it now, but perhaps someday. He also mentioned his blog: www.off-the-map.org/atheist/ . . . 

 

Introduction (I pay people to go to church): It was an honor to be given the opportunity to help people reimagine what it might mean for Christians to connect with non-Christians respectfully and authentically.

 

This is huge! There is very little civil discourse these days. Polarization and outrage are the norm. I just avoid "difficult" conversations rather than deal with the frothing at the mouth syndrome. To be able to communicate and disagree in respectful and authentic manners . . . wonderful.

 

I made note of yet another book that the author mentioned: The Evolution of Useful Things. I'm very interested in reading that one! The takeaway for Henderson is "Hidden in every new idea are the seeds of its demise." For various reasons, I'm just making this note here and hope to get this book and read it later.

 

Periodically throughout the book, Henderson has a section called "Defending the Space." 

 

Introduction (I pay people to go to church): Defending the space means we protect our relationships with non-Christians - they're real people to us, not targets. I think of it like this: They're just like me, except they're not currently interested in Jesus to the same degree I am.

 

He goes on to explain this in more detail, but I want to finish this blog entry and I'm only on the intro!

 

Rick Warren's Church: Saddleback: ". . . when it comes to music, I like it pure. Too much polish and you lose the heartfelt power, you lose the soul of the music, and you're not gonna move anyone."

 

Casper (I'll refer to him by his last name since that's how he's referenced throughout the book) is a musician and gives his POV on the music at each church service. At Saddleback, the professional set was off-putting for him. He compared it to American Idol.

 

 Rick Warren's Church: Saddleback:"What really moved me was talking over coffee with you."

 

Casper's honesty surprised Jim, but it makes sense. In having coffee and discussing the church service, they were two guys trusting one another and talking about life. This is relationship. And it matters.

 

Church, L.A. Style: Dream Center: "Well, it's right here, in the heart of the city. Amidst the poor and suffering. To me, that makes more sense than building a campus out in the middle of nowhere. Put your church where people need it most. I also like the fact that there appears to be a very solid mix of people heading inside."

 

Casper is making his honest "outsider" observations. Later in the book, he comments on how segregated most Christian churches are . . . but here he is recognizing a multicultural inner city church dynamic.

 

Church, L.A. Style: Dream Center:" . . . as far as I understand it anyway, Jesus never intended for the institution we call Christianity to form into a religion."

 

Jim kind of knocks Casper for a loop when he says this. He goes on to explain what and how Jesus taught. (And I'm thinking of how often Jesus had the harshest criticism for the most religious people of His day.) This book stirs up lots of questions.

 

Church, L.A. Style: Dream Center: ". . . a lot of what happens at church is really just cultural stuff."

 

There were times as I was reading this that I wondered about Jim's church experiences and his faith in Jesus. It seemed subsumed to learning Casper's opinions. But I agree that lots of what goes on in churches is cultural traditional stuff that may have no connection to the Gospel.

 

Church, L.A. Style: Dream Center: Frankly, most non-Christians have learned to see Christians as arrogant and unconcerned about their opinions. Offering an apology may in fact be the most effective way to get a conversation rolling.

 

Ouch, but true. So many people I know who are anti-church see Christians as arrogant, overbearing bullies. There are plenty of examples to look at in this current culture and climate . . . 

 

The Mayan and McManus: Mosaic: One thing I like about Casper and atheists in general is that due to their lack of reverence for our religion, they often see through things much more quickly than most Christians, and they feel free to tell me so.

 

I'm not sure why I marked this, except that I appreciated the relationship that the two men developed as they visited the different churches. They had open, honest conversations about belief, nonbelief, church, etc.

 

The Mayan and McManus: Mosaic: I could tell Erwin had not been through atheist training in quite some time and could use a refresher course in listening.

 

Listening is not my strength area . . . and something I'm really trying to improve upon. I'm so quick with my thoughts and my answers, but I truly need to work on listening to others. Erwin is the pastor who dismissed Casper's atheistic "beliefs" even after Casper insisted he has nonbelief.

 

The Mayan and McManus: Mosaic: ". . . I want to hear one answer to one simple question: What do you want me to do? I mean, we're talking about eternal salvation here, and if heaven is real, it can't be easy getting in."

 

When Casper has these genuine questions about faith, I am both surprised and relieved that Jim volleys back a question to him. Rather than "having all the answers," he digs to find out what and why Casper thinks.

 

The Mayan and McManus: Mosaic: Rather than talking down to people we're trying to influence, we'd be wise to remember that just because they don't have God, it doesn't mean they have no soul.

 

I just liked the way he wrote this.

 

Mega in the Midwest: Willow Creek: "The first thing that comes to mind is how much did this place cost to build? How much to keep it running? What are their electricity bills? And, maybe because of our 'mission,' the next thing I wonder is, is this what they think their God wants?"

 

As usual, Casper's first impressions raise some really good questions. I've never been to Willow Creek, but I've bought scripts from their drama department and have heard about what a big church it is.

 

Mega in the Midwest: Willow Creek:  "I mean, come on. People are being killed needlessly in every corner of the world, kids are starving, and people are praying for their pastor to meet a rock star? That's ludicrous."

 

I agree with Casper! And yet, I truly believe we can take *any* thought captive to the Lord and pray about anything in our lives, no matter how "insignificant." I don't think that the role of the church, though, is to lift up trivial concerns like this. Does it matter if Bill Hybels meets Bono? Perhaps to him, and he can pray about it. But to encourage a whole church congregation of several thousand to pray? Hmmm. Lots to discuss here about prayer.

 

Mega in the Midwest: Willow Creek: "No, Casper, all I have is faith - that's it - no proof. The fact is I can't prove one thing about what I believe to you. All I have is a hope, and the reality is neither of us will know who is right until we actually die."

 

I like how Jim lays it out. His honesty and forthrightness along with Casper's honesty about his observations and thoughts make this book very readable.

 

Mega in the Midwest: Willow Creek: For some reason, Christians continue to believe that we can talk people into following Jesus . . . Defending the space means we practice listening.

 

Again, listening is a skill for me to develop! And I already knew that it's pointless to try to "talk people into" following Jesus. But we are called to witness!

 

Helen, the Almost-an-Atheist, Takes Us to Church: First Presbyterian: "It's sometimes difficult to separate what's Christian from what's simply American."

 

Helen is talking about rituals like communion, confirmation, etc. More telling in this church visit was her observation that people didn't come up to the three of them and greet them. I like visiting other churches and seeing what they do . . . but I've not experienced church in another country (or culture). I have experienced traditional Roman Catholic Church, radical liberation theology Catholicism, United Methodist (two different churches, three different pastors), and Assembly of God. I've also attended Lutheran (ELCA) and Evangelical Free services . . .  Another site the author noted is Conversation at the Edge a blog for conversation for people with and without belief systems.  

 

Big Church or Church Big: Lawndale: Why are there such glaring discrepancies among churches regarding what it means to be a follower of Christ?

 

Sometimes Casper's questions to Jim lead Jim to raising pertinent questions. I've long been frustrated by the divisiveness between different denominations . . . it's simply not Scriptural to fight over some of the finer points of theology when we're told that Unity in the Spirit is key.

 

Big Church or Church Big: Lawndale: . . . what they call the Three Rs: relocation, reconciliation, and redistribution

 

This church is described as "missional" and rejects the stereotypical "Three Bs" (butts in the chair, bucks in the offering, building). I'm doing lots of paraphrasing and extrapolating here. I like it when churches really think about God's purpose for them instead of just "doing church."

 

Big Church or Church Big: Lawndale: In his book Real Hope in Chicago, Gordon put it this way: "I realized that 'get saved' evangelism was designed for suburban folk. It had little meaning in an urban context . . . People in the city are not encumbered primarily with feelings of guilt. Their deepest feelings are of hopelessness."

 

Hope is so important! I'm not sure I agree with this statement, but I'm guessing if I read Gordon's book, it would make a lot of sense. Evangelism is not just for suburbia . . . 

 

Big Church or Church Big: Lawndale: And I again thought how good it would be if pastors encouraged people to go visit other churches once a month.

 

Henderson (Jim) is making the point that seeing how others worship God is good, but it's also helpful for church goers to see how it feels to be an outsider. This makes a lot of sense to me. I love worshiping at different churches!

 

The Drummer's Church: Jason's House: That's what I want people to know about God - that God likes them and wants to hang out with them.

 

In this section, Casper goes to a musician friend's house for church. He'd been there before for barbecue and beer, but had a different experience when he went as a researcher for this book. A home church will naturally be more intimate, but the overwhelming takeaway for me was that his friend Jason lives his faith authentically - in how he treats people, in how he spends his free time. He "walks the talk." Cool!

 

Emerging Church Weekend: Imago and Mars: "Emerging church is a term used to describe a wide variety of churches that, for the most part, don't want to be like the traditional or mainstream megachurches."

 

I'm impressed that these two men were committed to visiting so many churches! I feel as though the megachurches are disproportionately represented.

 

Emerging Church Weekend: Imago and Mars: . . . another important distinguisher (sic) is that emerging churches are - again, for the most part - uncomfortable with the overemphasis on politics that has become a central identifier of the conservative evangelical movement.

 

I'm uncomfortable with it, too! Loving Jesus and striving to serve the Lord should *not* include political affiliation with the Republican party and especially not the big orange man in office!!!

 

Emerging Church Weekend: Imago and Mars:"As I see it, at places like Saddleback and Willow, you only have to say you're a Christian; following the teachings of Jesus seems optional. It's the same with this current administration. It's Christian talk, but then the bombs get dropped."

 

Amen! I'm with Casper on this one. How Christ-like is it to say and do the things our administration are saying and doing? What a joke.

 

Emerging Church Weekend: Imago and Mars: "Inbreaking is joining an existing community action, while outreaching is inviting them to join yours."

 

I love this distinction! As we've talked and prayed about being our local Jerusalem, we've talked about initiating things and inviting others to join versus seeing what's happening and joining in.

 

Emerging Church Weekend: Imago and Mars: "I understand how Christians disagree on a whole host of issues, like any group. I would say it is more the tone with which he approaches the topic. It's the I'm-right-and-anyone-who-disagrees-with-me-is-wrong vibe he gives off."

 

Yes! Again, I agree with Casper. When people have that particular "vibe," it's very off-putting. What's the point of trying to dialogue? 

 

Come as You Really Are: The Bridge: And yet I'm often tempted to act as if I know, when in fact I trust, and that is all that I really know for sure.

 

I love that Jim has those moments of recognizing his own failings through these dialogues with Casper. Confidence in Christ should not be a talisman warding unbelievers away.

 

Come as You Really Are: The Bridge: ". . . Jesus chose to have twelve disciples, not twenty thousand."

 

It's interesting that Casper is the one making the point that smaller groups have more impact on people's lives than the huge megachurches. Before this line, he says, "But it seems that those groups, which I know can be very effective, are taking second stage - literally and figuratively - to a massive light show for a sea of people in a sports arena or opera house." Jim pointed out that even large churches have small groups. The effectiveness of different ministries . . . how can one really tell? Being a Jesus follower is life-changing, but it looks different for different people.

 

Osteen Live!: Lakewood: . . . opinions that had been like wet cement suddenly hardened into deeply held convictions. Hunches formed over thirty years in ministry shifted like tectonic plates on the ocean floor of my soul.

 

First of all, I love his use of language here - the way the words flow is beautiful. Secondly, I'm not at all sure what his point is. I personally have a very strong dislike for Joel Osteen, but that's probably not fair of me. But does Jim Henderson admire him? Disagree with his methods? I don't want to re-read this section of the book, but I was genuinely puzzled by what opinions were hardened and what hunches shifted . . . 

 

Osteen Live!: Lakewood: "What I mean is that Joel Osteen and other TV preachers are not making appeals to the worst people, but to the worst in people.

 They make appeals to people's greed, selfishness, envy, pride: 'You're gonna get rich, you deserve abundance, you're better than nonbelievers.'"

 

Yet again, I agree with Casper here. It's such a turnoff to hear his spiel. I still remember his reluctance to let people shelter in his church after Hurricane Harvey. What a tool! Is he listening to Jesus or reading God's Word at all?! Yuk.

 

Keeping It Real: The Potter's House:  I agreed with Casper that the celebrity pastor thing is garish and pretty much a reflection of the church's adoption of consumerism and technology.

 

Yep. Sad. And part of why some people have no desire to go to church.

 

Keeping It Real: The Potter's House: "It's simple: If the Bible is really the Word of God, it's very, very important to not take it out of context. I mean, that's a rule that applies to most every phrase ever said, so you'd think it'd apply tenfold to the Bible! You can't look at Leviticus and say God hates gay people, then ignore Jesus' endless commands to love each other. You can't take a snippet of the Bible out of context and misuse it, or spin it, to support your particular pitch. That's twisted."

 

A lot of us tend to pick our "favorite" verses and focus on those . . . and I'm guilty of it, too. Casper goes on to talk about the Constitution and amendments to it, but I want to finish this blog entry and move on.

 

Keeping It Real: The Potter's House: "I guess I'd just like Christians and church leaders to be more honest. Not just with me, but with everyone in their churches. Stop treating faith as a fact. Call it a hope. Call it confidence, not certainty."

 

Henderson wanted someone to be honest with him, sharing an "outsider" perspective on church. He  got it!

 

Is This What Jesus Told You Guys to Do?: The same format repeated itself regardless of the setting. The greet-sing-preach-collect-present form played out in front of us with unrelenting predictability. And when it was all done, he would turn to me and ask, "Jim, is this what Jesus told you guys to do?"

 

What a great question! Getting together for a worship service once a week is not the most important thing Christ followers were told to do.  

 

Is This What Jesus Told You Guys to Do?:  That leads to my basic question for pastors and Christians of all kinds: Are we in the preaching business or the people-changing business?

 

Honestly, I think this is a little unfair. Most pastors I know do so much more than preach! They counsel, encourage, connect, serve, . . . and inspire their congregation to do so also.

 

Is This What Jesus Told You Guys to Do?:  We need to honestly admit that in fact, Jesus didn't care a whit about church services. He cared about loving and serving others and introducing people to a personal God who not only loves them but more important, likes them.

 

Loving and serving others. I like that. Succinct.

 

Casper's Closing Words: There are two rules we must all abide by to live healthy, happy lives with each other and with everyone on the planet:

1. Be open-minded. Learning is the best thing that can happen to anyone.

2. DO unto others as you would have them do unto you.

And though I've never met the man, I think Jesus would agree.

 

I think it's interesting that all these experiences and conversations left Casper content with atheism and okay with not knowing Jesus. I can't disagree with his two points, though.

 

Q & A with Jim & Casper: This is probably more of a reflection of Casper's personality, but I also think he expresses the postmodern mind-set. Many young people are tired of being sold and told, preferring instead to be invited and included.

 

Someone asked about Casper's dislike of brochures and bulletins. I think Jim's response is eye-opening. Having done the bulletin at church for several years, I was taken aback when the pastor decided to stop using them. It has taken me a while to understand that decision. The idea of not wanting to be "sold and told" also caught my attention. Young people are very different now from thirty years ago . . . 

 

Q & A with Jim & Casper: There is a difference between certainty, and confidence or hope. As followers of Jesus, we put our faith in a set of beliefs that we choose to think of as real. We cannot prove any of them - that is why it is called faith.

 

This theme came up over and over. I'm not sure why I highlighted it again. This blog entry (and reading the book in two separate chunks of checkout time) has taken me much too long!